tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8261814012053869943.post6143856416243658992..comments2023-10-09T03:39:02.388-06:00Comments on Expository Lutheran: Another response to a responseBror Ericksonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06913133289813136695noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8261814012053869943.post-57764458537098386102009-04-26T07:36:00.000-06:002009-04-26T07:36:00.000-06:00Bror,
Just glad to see that you and Dr. Newton ar...Bror,<br /><br />Just glad to see that you and Dr. Newton are having a good conversation. He presented a talk (close to the one you are discussing, but in presentation form) - we only were able to chat before and not afterwards. Dr. Newton is a fellow I like, even if I don't always agree with him for reasons that are obvious to you. Keep up the good discussion since you've got one going.Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8261814012053869943.post-75691855010615616932009-04-23T08:38:00.000-06:002009-04-23T08:38:00.000-06:00"Let the pastor be well prepared for his sermons, ..."Let the pastor be well prepared for his sermons, his Bible studies, his catechesis (do that well! Prepare, don't be lazy, there! Read, grow, share. Be flexible. Be aware of your hearers. Work at it. (is that law?))-- and let the Word take care of the rest."<br />Yes it is law, but still enjoyable. I only have two categories for these things law or Gospel. I don't see forgiveness there, so it must be law. If I don't do those things (and I do fail) I am guilty of dropping the ball on my God given vocation. If I don't do those things I am not doing the things God has asked me to do. For that I deserve hell. <br />Only by the blood of Christ will a priest spare adding his skull to the pavers on the highway to hell.Bror Ericksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06913133289813136695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8261814012053869943.post-86105299251092592882009-04-22T16:05:00.000-06:002009-04-22T16:05:00.000-06:00Larry writes: "But that is not at all what Jesus c...Larry writes: "But that is not at all what Jesus commanded, He commanded baptize and teach them ALL that He commanded."<br /><br />--That's what I've been thinking throughout the discussion: Catechesis!<br /><br />Let the pastor be well prepared for his sermons, his Bible studies, his catechesis (do that well! Prepare, don't be lazy, there! Read, grow, share. Be flexible. Be aware of your hearers. Work at it. (is that law?))-- and let the Word take care of the rest.<br /><br />In my personal "success stories", in terms of getting people into church, it has to be credited to the faithful catechesis of a good pastor. I have three god-children who were baptized on their confirmation after attending with my children for two years.<br /><br />The pastor was very flexible to teach on Sunday morning, so that these children could attend (distances, lack of family support). Otherwise, there would have been no way. He also was kind and deep, though he was ill and not very energetic. <br /><br />Now, the congregation could have been more open-minded. These unchurched young people, though faithful in their attendance, were something of an anomaly and usually viewed more as people whom the M family brought, rather than individuals whom they themselves might befriend. So, I think the "lens" could indeed be improved. There is a point there. <br /><br />Even the outreach efforts of church most active and "successful" in our town are a type of "catechesis". The Missionary Alliance advertises and runs "Alpha courses" and the "Truth Project", (whether or not you approve of all of the contents; most likely not; I don't. But quite a bit of it is good.), which both attempt to teach basic Christian substance. It is a more glitzy attempt at a type of catechesis.<br /><br />My two cents worth.Brigittehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10259491144770243688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8261814012053869943.post-40539448630156154462009-04-22T14:40:00.000-06:002009-04-22T14:40:00.000-06:00Thanks Larry.Thanks Larry.Bror Ericksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06913133289813136695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8261814012053869943.post-12526082408325255752009-04-22T06:40:00.000-06:002009-04-22T06:40:00.000-06:00Bror, et. al.,
First out of the box, I am a layma...Bror, et. al.,<br /><br />First out of the box, I am a layman as it goes to theology and Christianity. So as to not be deceptive in that I am a layman who reads a fair amount. I offer some thoughts on the subject having come from deep SB/Baptist roots with some later years sprinkling of Reformed. I say that because I think that affects even Lutheran circles and they (we now for me) may be experiencing a problem that those of us who have been on the “other side” understand experientially quite a bit. Take them and leave them as you wish. So concerning the discussion at hand and the command:<br /><br />First, I agree that I could EASILY list more times I didn’t go than I did and I hear Law accusing me. On the flip side when I was hearing Law but “was doing” a lot (per se), I tended to do it, if I’m honest, not all different than the way that John Wesley once was to have reported to admitting in a candid personal letter; that he did all his evangelism efforts if he dared to admit “to save his own soul”. For me back then when it was pushing me “as Law”, back in my old SB days, I did it to “prove my faith/salvation/election” because that’s where the terror was for me. In SB religion one hears more about “doing evangelism” rather than the evangel itself, even from the best theologians they have to offer and thus one looses Christ but gets very busy. That’s another religion in opposition to when the message itself, the Gospel, propagates itself due to its STUNNING report.<br /><br />As a side note that is why the protestant good works “prove faith” is equal to Rome’s “faith formed by love” and thoroughly antichristic – because at the end of the day I have to admit to what John Wesley had the guts to admit to and that is ‘my proving faith/salvation/conversion/election’ for myself was not significantly different from “trying to save myself”. One has to think in the once saved/can’t fall away paradigm (really experientially be IN IT, not just academically), without sacraments, and reinterpret it back through Luther’s other paradigm. For here works salvation “post conversion”, on the other side of the ‘once saved/can’t fall away’ paradigm line in the sand that is crossed only once, via third use of the law and etc – here works salvation under the guise of “proving faith (election/rebirth, etc…)” slips back into the equation and are exactly like, not just similar to, but PRECISELY Rome’s “faith formed by love” and a denial of Christ. Anyway that is a connected side trail.<br /><br />Back to the item at hand: <br /><br />Secondly, I just read this the other day in an old 2001 LCMS Synod paper. It was very helpful, again coming from the outside in sometimes helps, I think, see these things more clearly. The paper was speaking about the issue of evangelism and basically goes to show that the command from the Great Commission which explicitly says make disciples by baptizing them and teaching them all that I have commanded is explicitly spelling out what evangelism truly is. And we can see this more clearly if we look at what it is not according to our day and age. In our day and age, particularly evangelical circles in which I was in, evangelism could be summed up as “get’em in as fast as you can and we can clean up their theology/doctrine later”. But that is not at all what Jesus commanded, He commanded baptize and teach them ALL that He commanded. Thus, the paper goes on to well spell out, that “maintenance of the baptized church folk” and evangelizing those the unbelievers is ALL evangelism. The pastor’s preaching every Sunday, the LS, SS classes as well as outward evangelism are all evangelism, because that’s what the GC explicitly says. For what is the Lord’s Supper weekly but a “proclamation of the Lord’s death until He returns”! Also, we are in the midst of our catechism classes for membership at this wonderful Gospel rich LCMS church. We meet once a week. I told my wife, “You know you hear of sin and Christ crucified not just on Sundays but in these classes. Now we’ve been Christians for years now (my wife a very long time, and myself for around 10 now) and we go and even in these Thursday night classes the pastor is evangelizing us within them (teach all). It’s rich and deep and Christ proclaimed to us in a catechesis way. Its true evangelism as Jesus explicitly commanded, “teach them ALL things I commanded”. And you know what I’m not offended by hearing it afresh as a convert of many years now.” The point being is we in America due to evangelical infection have a very narrowly skewed and erroneous concept of evangelism per evangelicalisms great errors and not per the Great Commission. I had to read that 2001 paper to realize this but in reality Christ is quite plain and clear in the GC once it’s pointed out to you. If He’d only said the Great Commission was to “teach all things”, its kind of obvious on its own – our ears are a bit dull and skewed I think.<br /><br />I say that having come from evangelical circles that busied themselves up with the “get’em in clean’em up later” concept of “evangelism”. It does “generate numbers” but 99.9% of the time it’s not really giving the Gospel and Christ but decisional theology and secondly the “clean’em up later” doesn’t ever really happen. Many false converts, many short lived starts. Plus, the “clean’em up later” really is rank disobedience to the command is it not, “teach all things”. Christ says evangelism is this, “baptize and teach them all things I commanded” and man says, “get’em in and clean’em up later” – rank ‘in your face disobedience.<br /><br />Finally, this reminds me of a similar debate I was once reading a year ago not so much regarding specifically the command to go and do relating to evangelism, but rather good works in general. The issue was the same, are such commands Law or Gospel? Pastor Bill Cwirla quoted Hal Senkbeil on something I’ve never forgot to answer the question. It’s one of my favorite Gospel quotes of all time:<br /><br />Cwirla paraphrasing and putting into the context of the ‘is it law or gospel’ debate, Hal Senkbeil from “Sanctification - Christ in action.”<br /><br />“That Christ, by His perfect active obedience, has already fulfilled your vocation for you and brought it to its glorious telos (perfect completion) in His all-reconciling death (which means there's no way for you to screw it up except the refusal to be reconciled), that you're essentially dead, you no longer live but Christ lives in you, so that it is Christ at work who serves your neighbor, and Christ is in your neighbor to serve ("as often as you have done it to the least of these, you've done it to me"). <br /><br />So the One who receives your ministrations of vocation is also the One who perfected them in His vocation as the embodiment of humanity under the Law, and who gives you His perfection as a free gift that you might enjoy your vocation in His glorious liberty and stop agonizing over whether it's Law or Gospel.”<br /><br />That reorients the whole question and debate about as nicely and shortly as anyone could put it.<br /><br />Blessings,<br /><br />LarryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com