tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8261814012053869943.post3561558945066890920..comments2023-10-09T03:39:02.388-06:00Comments on Expository Lutheran: James and the CanonBror Ericksonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06913133289813136695noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8261814012053869943.post-9888660667858363432010-01-22T13:48:49.374-07:002010-01-22T13:48:49.374-07:00Of course I was joking about the Shepherd of Herma...Of course I was joking about the Shepherd of Hermas. My only point was that it was in the Codex Sinaiticus. StuAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8261814012053869943.post-40660638969035817362010-01-22T09:36:04.066-07:002010-01-22T09:36:04.066-07:00Stuart,
You know how Dan Brown alleged that the Co...Stuart,<br />You know how Dan Brown alleged that the Council of Nicea decided what was in the canon and not? Well this is the answer to that. The Council didn't. The church was not their to decide. In fact the church was so indecisive in some books that it didn't know what to do. Yet it was certain with some, and less with others. Actually the idea that we can decide what is scripture and what isn't by popular voted leads us to the ELCA, making the books prove themselves on their own merits, and thus retain their authority over he church in the cases of books like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the Pauline Corpus, keeps us from going down the road of the ELCA. Nothing the church has ever taught as dogma comes from James alone. <br />And reading the Shepherd of Hermes should be enough to through it out. Was for me. Can't make heads or tails of it. Worse than James.Bror Ericksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06913133289813136695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8261814012053869943.post-88412067045343883362010-01-22T05:45:52.796-07:002010-01-22T05:45:52.796-07:00I think though that we CAN reconcile James to the ...I think though that we CAN reconcile James to the rest of scripture and we should. <br /><br />It is a better strategy than just saying "well, I dont think it is really part of the canon. But I cannot really argue with brother christians who elect to follow a different stragegy.<br /><br />The point needs to be about serving our neighbor. Here this means probably getting to know someone well enough before we start spouting off and sparring to be able to truly be able to help.<br /><br />I know that if I listened for a long while and asked questions sincerely trying to learn what that other person believes and why, they will not only be more open to listening to me, what I then have to say to them will hit the proper mark far more elegantly.<br /><br />pray for me that I learn and strive to acquire this discipline.Frank Sonnekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18119302543437442204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8261814012053869943.post-55808804819734578412010-01-22T05:42:23.302-07:002010-01-22T05:42:23.302-07:00"how does one teach this without going down t..."how does one teach this without going down the road to denial of the teachings of Christ, like the ELCA with the Bible contains the Word of the Lord."<br /><br />We trust The Truth wherever it takes us. <br /><br />I used to think it was not wise to bring this up except with christians who are well grounded enough to understand this. <br /><br />Now I am of a different mind, those who understand this are not shaken when someone questions the authority of scripture by bringing this up as fact. <br /><br />They can respond as in "Ok. I know that. so your point is?" and then show how faith in Christ should not be challenged by these facts. I have been able to help more than one ex-evangelical turning liberal evangelical on this point.Frank Sonnekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18119302543437442204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8261814012053869943.post-23011786074278213422010-01-21T16:35:24.552-07:002010-01-21T16:35:24.552-07:00Hey Bror, I remember when Prof. Marquart first bro...Hey Bror, I remember when Prof. Marquart first brought this up at sem, it really through for a loop! And then when Dr. Gieschen said the Mark 16 ending was not in the Bible, it shook my faith. <br /><br />But, now I think it needs to be discussed, due to the 'biblicism' that abounds in the Church. But, the question remains, how does one teach this without going down the road to denial of the teachings of Christ, like the ELCA with the Bible contains the Word of the Lord. <br /><br />If James is not on the same level as Galatians, that is only your interpretation, et cetera. You know what I mean. It opens the proverbial can of worms. Thanks for bringing this up. <br /><br />BTW, speaking of Gieschen since Codex Sinaiticus is the 'almost end all' of some exegetes, why isn't the Shepherd of Hermas in the modern Bible. It was in Sinaiticus.<br /><br />StuAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8261814012053869943.post-24253431423246884132010-01-21T05:37:53.142-07:002010-01-21T05:37:53.142-07:00Oh I take it very serious on this issue. It's...Oh I take it very serious on this issue. It's one I've pondered from a laymen's side myself. I always wondered or found it a bit astonishing that Paul's letter to the Corinthian church (specifically the first one) was dealing with a similar fundamental problem as was James's letter. Basically these divisions of folks, some better than others. In fact Paul was dealing with more gross sin in Corinth.<br /><br />But what stands out is the stark difference in how each addresses the similar issue.<br /><br />In short James ends up saying one is not justified by faith alone but works, yet Paul ends up pointing back to the problem being that they don't assess the flesh and blood of Christ in the Lord's Supper. One goes to the works (James) no matter how you slice it, the other the the Gospel (the Lord's Supper - Paul).<br /><br />It's always been a rather easily seen stark contrast when you read the letters side by side.<br /><br />Thoughs?<br /><br />LarryLarryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13387712441394419154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8261814012053869943.post-87188160177702998112010-01-20T10:46:03.576-07:002010-01-20T10:46:03.576-07:00Yes Larry,
It isn't bravery it is necessity th...Yes Larry,<br />It isn't bravery it is necessity that makes me tread here. I'm absolutely serious. I cannot afford to put James on the same level as Romans, Matthew, Luke, etc. I can't afford this with Hebrews either. I like Hebrews. I have serious doctrinal qualms with James. But I can't afford it. Either the book carries it's own authority by authorship, or it doesn't. We can't make something scripture. It can't be voted in. No council can decide that, which is why Nicea didn't. If the church has the power to vote something into canon, then the bible becomes subject to the church, not the church the Bible. This is a serious problem today in the Roman Catholic church. Baptists tend to be to ignorant to even recognize the problem but it is there too. <br />I'm actually expecting more debate here. But so far just disappointed. I look forward to debate and discussion. Not angry argument, but debate. Somethings are worth debating. Sometimes when people shy away from debate, I wonder if it even matters to them, any of it.Bror Ericksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06913133289813136695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8261814012053869943.post-13214958877623227992010-01-20T09:57:16.190-07:002010-01-20T09:57:16.190-07:00Bror,
You know this brave ground you tread upon, ...Bror,<br /><br />You know this brave ground you tread upon, but I think worthy of treading. As I told my wife, “Be careful you have not made a new pope of your bible only for the cannon of Scripture was not directly written by the finger of God in Lifeway Publishing House”. That is scandalous to say because it sounds like you “don’t want to listen to the Word of God”. But it could not be more contrary, I do, it’s not QUESTIONING God’s Word but what actually CONSTITUTES God’s Word that is crucial.<br /><br />I saw more than one time in my SB days when we’d go on a mission or evangelism outing to Utah (Salt Lake and Provo) or local Mormon areas KY – a Mormon stop a Baptist dead in his tracks on “faith alone” by quoting James 2:24 on them. They pull James 2:24 out like a gun on you. It was hard to argue with, “it says it right there in the bible”. <br /><br />Even when one begins defending James’s 2:24 “Justified by works and not faith alone”, you find yourself saying “well the words there really mean…” and that sounds an awful lot like sacramentarians defending their doctrine of the “Lord’s Supper” memorial only (Baptist), sign/symbol (Calvinist). “This is My body/blood…” – “Well the words there really mean…”<br /><br />LarryLarryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13387712441394419154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8261814012053869943.post-18349745948209836532010-01-20T03:41:03.233-07:002010-01-20T03:41:03.233-07:00I can hardly wait!I can hardly wait!Frank Sonnekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18119302543437442204noreply@blogger.com